Well, you can say the very same things about us and Ascend.
>2. Box is probably the most powerfull, because of
> the extensive cisco IOS. (2511 is a feature rich box)
More code = more bugs and more complexity. Don't forget that.
Yes it has more features. DO YOU NEED THEM?! That is the question. Do
not buy a box because it has feature X unless you need feature X. The
more features a box has the more likely it is to have bugs and the more
complexity involved. (Simple, the more lines of code the more bugs you
will have, I forget the name of the law...) Cisco boxes are bloated with
every feature they can cram in - a different way of doing things. We
quite deliberately to not add in every feature we are asked to add. That
keeps the code lean and keeps it focused on doing a few things the best
it can.
Jack of all trades and all that...
>3. Cisco IOS is common across all cisco boxes
ComOS common across all Livingston boxes. And actually, to a greated
extent!
Are you aware that 'Cisco IOS' is NOT the same code tree on all boxes?
ALL versions of ComOS are built from the same code tree.
Simple proof - the Cisco 1020 is a Livingston Office Router with a new
case. The 'IOS' in there is ComOS with some changes to make it look and
feel like IOS. We ship them from here in Cisco boxes...
>5. Only does 48 modems per box as opposed to ASCEND appx 96
1. It has analog modems and a codec, NOT digital modems.
2. Ascend only goes to 72 modems. You cannot load an ASCEND with a modem
for every B channel.
>1. Seem to have a large share of the market, UUNET uses
> many many Ascend boxes
Netcom is basically all Livingston. We have large customers too.
>3. 6 Months no payment for box, then installments
We don't finance directly, but talk to resellers.
>1. Read that the modem technology isn't the best. (True?)
I have to say that they are better now then they were.
>3. Don't know Ascend's "IOS"
IMHO it sucks. I can't stand the nested menu bullshit. But then some
people really like it and hate ComOS...
>4. Tech support?
I believe you have to pay for it. As well as pay for software upgrades.
>3. ComOs not as powerfull as IOS
I wouldn't say that. You are equating power to the number of features.
We have fewer features - no contest. But do you need anything they do
that we do not do?
Here's some work I did a few weeks back:
---cut---
PM-3 vs MAX 4002
I picked the 4002 because it is the closest MAX to the PM-3 - 2 PRI
Both have 6 expansion slots, single ethernet, dual PRI.
The MAX 4002/4004 is US only however and is apparently limited to 48
modems. The PM-3 goes to 60. The 4002 can be upgraded in the field to a
4004 with 4 PRIs, something we cannot do (You'd need another chassis). But
at that point you have 96 lines of PRI and 72 modems max (their cards
are 12 modems per). So you can't use a full box on all channels for analog
support. I think that is a drawback to the design personally, but I've a
feeling it is a religious issue with no real right answer.
Both the PM-3 and 4002 support dialin as well as nailed up WAN connections
using PPP and Frame Relay. But from the 4002 datasheet it does T1 and
frac T1, doesn't mention channelized. I see no mention of channelized T1,
but they *must* since they say you can do modem dialins without the ISDN
option - that implies channelized T1 dialins. Since they can do that and
they support T1/Frac-T1 routing for WAN links, one would expect they support
channelized WAN links. *shrug* Maybe not.
Reading their info it looks like base support is flat channelized T1, which
Frame Relay and ISDN as part of the 'Hybrid Access' software upgrade.
I also don't see mention of multilink PPP support across chassis.
Apparently the 4002 is nothing but a 4004 with the software crippling the
other 2 ports. You need to upgrade the software to get the other 2 ports.
List of 4002 chassis is $11,000, digital modem cards are $6,250 each. I don't
quite understand what you need to make a 4002 like a PM-3 - I *think* you
need 'Hybrid Access64' for $1,500. There is also an option to enable ISDN
for $1,000 and Frame Relay for $1,000 - but I think those are both part of
Hybrid Access. They don't seem to have a great deal of Pricing info on the
web, or I couldn't find it. I got these prices when I stumbled across
<http://www.ascend.com/products/max4002-4/max4002-4produpdate.txt>
Since it isn't clear, and you have to call/fax/email for pricing info (lame)
I can't be sure of the current prices or bundles, etc. And I'm not
positive what one needs. But even doing a basic setup, their list is a lot
higher than ours. And I know, from sales, that our ISP discount also comes
out to a lower price for a unit configured with modems.
Apparently filtering and firewall abilities are an option on the 4002, they
are standard on the PM-3 as with all of our products. Wait, another
document indicates packet filters are standard, but fails to say what the
difference with the firewall option is... I love their web...
So the MAX 4002 seems more comparable to a PM-3 than the RA6300. The MAX
has features/baggage that the PM-3 doesn't - we don't have all those expansion
cards to turn a PM-3 into a video conferencing system, hub router (they have
V.35 and T1 port cards), or BRI cards. Interestingly to me, the BRI cards
and modem cards take the same slots, so it looks like using BRI reduces the
number of modems. It isn't clear that you can use the built in modems with
users coming in on BRI, but I'll give them the doubt on that one. The 4002
supports TACACS and TACACS+ as well as RADIUS. But with everyone and their
duck supporting RADIUS these days, I personally don't see it as a major issue.
Also, many of the features that are standard on a PM-3 are options on the
MAX - for a fee of course. ISDN, Frame Relay, V.120 Rate Adaption, and
V.25bis dialing are options.
I based this on:
<http://www.ascend.com/products/max4002-4/max4002-4index.html> (all the links)
<http://www.ascend.com/products/max4002-4/max4002-4produpdate.txt>
Their web site, IMHO, doesn't have a lot of technical information in an
easily retrievable format. Xylo's site is far better, and I'd like to
think ours is too (being webmaster and all). I had to poke around a lot to
find things, and then lots of things weren't clearly stated or defined.
And some if it was only available on the PDF, not in HTML.
---cut---
The following is our best approximation of the transition that Cisco has gone
through to create the AS5200. As you can see the architecture has not really
changed, it has just been repackaged. And of course in the AS5200 you are
still left with the digital to analog conversion and a possible bottleneck
at the async port. The diagram at the bottom shows the PM-3 architecture
in contrast.
Cisco Phase 1:
25XX plus external modems
+-----------------------------------+
| Cisco 25XX |
+-------+ | +------+ +----------------+ |
-- analog--| Modem |--- async ----| UART |-----| Routing Engine | |
+-------+ | +------+ +----------------+ |
| |
+-----------------------------------+
Cisco Phase 2:
AS5100
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| US Robotics DWAN Hub |
| |
| +-----------------------------------+ |
| | Cisco 25XX on a card | |
| +-------+ | +------+ +----------------+ | |
-- T1 -----| Modem |--- async ----| UART |-----| Routing Engine | | |
| +-------+ | +------+ +----------------+ | |
| | | |
| +-----------------------------------+ |
| |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Cisco Phase 3:
AS5200
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| AS5200 Chassis |
| |
| +----------------------+
| +------------+ +----------+ | |
| | Digital | | Microcom | | +------+ +---------+|
- PRI ---| to |--analog--| Modem |--async ---| UART |--| Routing ||
| | Analog | | | | +------+ +---------+|
| | Conversion | +----------+ | |
| +------------+ +----------------------+
| |
| |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Livingston PM-3 Architecture
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| PM-3 Chassis |
| |
| +-------+ |
|+---------+ +--------+ | High | +-----------------+ |
|| Digital | | Digital|---| Speed |---| Routing | |
- PRI --| Switch |--digital--| Modem |---| Back |---| Engine | |
|+---------+ +--------+ | Plane | +-----------------+ |
| +-------+ |
| |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
-MZ
-- Livingston Enterprises - Chair, Department of Interstitial Affairs Phone: 800-458-9966 510-426-0770 FAX: 510-426-8951 megazone@livingston.com For support requests: support@livingston.com <http://www.livingston.com/> Snail mail: 6920 Koll Center Parkway #220, Pleasanton, CA 94566 See me in person: Internet Expo, Boston, MA, October 16-17, Booth 422 ;-)